segnung | All is right in the world.

There was mutual using going on, but the power imbalance involved definitely has turned into way more of Roth and Doom using ONTD than otherwise, imo. Then again, I know some of the people posting did get something out of it, and this just brings me back to my weird fascination with groupie culture, which is basically what just went down, but the whole thing is just. Damn, there's a lot of gross going down there.

I agree re: hands, but I think that's partially because I am a fan of hands the way QT is a fan of feet.

Definitely. Roth's comments about breaking the fourth wall and empowerment and all rang hollow to me because in the end, he benefitted the most from it. I'm sure people who participated in the shenanigans enjoyed it, but I question his sincerity when he blabs on about how much he loves ONTD and all of that. I mean, getting sent nudes is no big deal for him, as he's just going to forget about them, make Hostel 3 and have more fangirls contacting him. For every woman who doesn't mind doing such things and has a bit of fun with it, there's going to be a young girl who finds the experience to be more thrilling and exciting than it is for Roth, because it's a pretty run-of-the-mill occurrence for him. At the end of the day he's not going to give a shit about any of them and all that's left is used tissues. I suppose I took the long-winded way to say that I find it depressing to become mere wanking material that will be all too quickly discarded. There are plenty of people who don't mind, but it bums me out.

I have however, come across some savvy groupies. Many of them end up having the last laugh because years later, they're living what could be considered mundane/suburban lives while the rockstars they were involved with end up washed up (I'm particularly intrigued by the hairband/Sunset Strip scene, where such a scenario is common).

I'm the same way with hands, too. I end up attracted to artists/delicately built men and women because I find their hands to be the loveliest (and generally, if they have nice hands, they have the feet to match).

Oh yeah, I don't disagree with you there. And also, Roth going on about how it was so artistically freeing made me laugh so hard I thought I was going to throw up, because SERIOUSLY. SERIOUSLY? OH MY ACTUAL GOD. (Pro-est of tips, Eli, you don't get to co-opt terminology from third-wave feminism when you still seem to have trouble seeing women as people.) And I mean, yeah, ONTD has been referring to him as their "rebound skank" (after whatever went down with ASkars, which I'm not clear on?), but you're right that the issue is very different.

And oh man, the hairband/Sunset Strip scene is actually where I started getting weirdly obsessed with groupie culture. That whole thing is so bizarre. There used to be this online magazine: Metal Sludge? And it had this crazy letter column called "Donna's Ho Bag"? and it was seriously ridiculous. And mostly made up of everybody making fun of the guys they slept with. Except Rikki Rocket, of whom everyone was weirdly fond.

And vaguely on topic, but not entirely about groupie culture, but definitely where it and fangirl culture collides, have you ever read Caroline Sullivan's Bye Bye Baby: My Tragic Love Affair With The Bay City Rollers? It is seriously kind of amazing.

He made it sound as though as he had obtained enlightenment when all he accomplished was getting nudes from pliable young women. And then for some reason, Roth thinks it's a compliment to tell them he's jerking off to them? He seriously thinks that Hostel 2 is a feminist film and that it's not homophobic to call someone 'faggot.'
And then he gets all upset when his jackassery is pointed out to him. I have only seen Cabin Fever once, but I found a fantastic review that articulately summarizes his misogyny and perhaps, fear of women: By having Ryder Strong's character attempting to finger Jordan Ladd underneath a blanket, only to realize he had his fingers in a gaping wound on her upper thigh.

ONTD's issue with ASkars is that he's dating his co-star, Evan Rachel Wood. Apparently, she's an evil whore to them. Another issue with the Eli debacle: So many were quick to send him nudes, but ONTD will gladly berate any woman celebrity who has ever been nude; particularly Vanessa Hudgens, whose private nudes taken for her boyfriend were leaked everywhere. And to top it off, Vanessa was the one who had to publicly apologize for something that wasn't her fault. Indeed, one must be careful with nudes/sex tapes, but to berate someone for something that was initially kept private between two consenting individuals and then send nudes to someone with an ounce of celebrity (especially one who shares them with anyone) is delightful hypocrisy.

I love Metal Sludge! I used to lurk the forums because of many of the users. Most were mellowed out, middle-aged metalheads who discussed everything, from their teen years, groupie stories, to even real estate. One of my favorite users was a divorced mother who grew pot in her closet and kept her groupie activities to a simple crush on Clive Owen. No matter what generation, however, Nikki Sixx still appears to be the Holy Grail of most groupies. And because of Metal Sludge, I end up watching The Decline of Western Civilization Civilization Part II: The Metal Years a little too much on google video.

I haven't, but that sounds interesting! I never thought of the Bay City Rollers like that, to be honest. They just seem too sweet and non-sexual.

It's kind of impressive how he can make such horribly anti-woman films that still manage to pass the Bechdel test.

I had no idea what the issue was with ASkars, and OH KIDS. I wonder if this will change anyone's opinion there about celebrity nudes now. Because uh. Yeah.

I never really hung out at Metal Sludge, just read a bunch of stuff. And oh man, Nikki Sixx. (Which, ps. things I'm still not over: the guy who ghostwrote The Dirt is Neil Strauss. You know, of PUA fame.)

I'm going to waste hours of life at http://bechdel.nullium.net/. I'm sure some films I love will end up making me cringe (not so bad, I suppose).

The only crime of Evan Rachel Wood's is dating Marilyn Manson after he left Dita Von Teese. It was an admittedly shitty situation, but Evan was 19 at the time, Manson is no longer relevant, so who cares, right? They've been on a roll lately, what with shaming rape victims and such.

OH GAWD. I didn't know that! I still hang around on what is now a former Courtney Love forum, and the place exploded when it was posted that Strauss was dating her guitarist (who then dumped him for Robbie Williams). It's fitting that he'd ghostwrite The Dirt.

Yeah, I was always kind of skeeved out by the Manson/Wood thing, because waaaay too young for you, dude. But she always seemed pretty all right. I hate when people get all angry and hatey over a famous person's SO. I am so like "This just in: even if he wasn't dating someone, he still probably wouldn't fuck you. HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW YOU."

I was pretty disgusted by their relationship, too, and I was anticipating her finally finding someone more age appropriate/not Manson (who is yet another man-child who tries too hard to be controversial). Also, according to ONTD, if there's already a famous woman who dresses like its the '40s, then no one else can dress like that, either.

Freakouts over celeb S.O.s reminds me of the crazies over in the Supernatural fandom; there was a convention and the actors were there, along with their girlfriends. Fans actually claimed that their girlfriends were ruining the 'fan experience'. One of them prided herself on calling security on Jensen Ackles' girlfriend.

Oh, god. I remember that. SPN fandom is kind of insane like that. Then again, weren't the people involved also insane J2 tinhats?

Indeed they are. One of my close friends is a big fan of the show and she had no idea about the insanity permeating SPN fandom (or the Wincest, for that matter). She just made a D: face when I told her all about it. In general, I find a small corner of a fandom of choice to stay in; then when I venture out of it and into the fandom as a whole, I become horrified and go running back to my corner.

Also, whatever, the whole fourth wall thing completely missed the point that the fanfic is NOT FOR HIM. We write it for each other and I could give a fuck if they read it. The fact that he doesn't realize why that might make people who are doing that feel uncomfortable (People who are mostly women, and who are socialized to feel crap about sexual feelings, much less rly kinky ones), he's a goddamn n00b to life.

YES.

He was treating the fanfic as if it were something to be ridiculed, because, yes, who would enjoy reading about attractive men being with each other? I wonder if perhaps he felt threatened in some way, by having his character portrayed as virile, masculine, and gay? He did remark it was out of character and that he'd never write his own gay fanfiction "because that would be gay."

And in some way, I think Eli making a big deal out of it and getting on LJ was a way of barging and declaring, I'M ACTUALLY HERE AND ACKNOWLEDGING YOUR PRESENCE SO YOU CAN TOUCH YOURSELF TO ME AND NOT JUST TO FANFICTION! ISN'T THAT NICE OF ME?

EXACTLY.

Also, that article you linked is making me laugh so hard even though it's really really terrible.

I get stuck at the first sentence Writer/director/producer/hack Eli Roth is a 33-year-old adolescent who loves to ogle titties but distrusts women and suspects deep down that there’s something kinda icky about them, laugh horrendously, then remember there's more to the review.

I know it's a great way to make all the fine, young dudes in the audience laugh, but how do you seriously mistake a gaping wound on an upper thigh with a vagina?

Oh, that's right, Mr. Roth: Yucky, dirty vaginas.

Wasn't she also, like, asleep at the time, too? I was too busy being like SHE IS ASLEEP. STOP THAT. >:( to stop and think about Roth's concern about dirty icky vaginas. (You have to Listerine your dick after!)

I do believe Jordan was completely out of it when Mr. Strong was attempting to violate her. I couldn't recall too much else from that scene, but sweet Jesus, yes, STOP THAT, MR. STRONG. I'M SUPPOSED TO FEEL BAD ABOUT YOU, YOU IDIOT?
Jordan's character was the only one I felt anything for, as she was abandoned in a shed and left to rot. Then there was the other gal who was made to be the 'slutty' one in the horror film. She even got that stupid line (which I just imdb'd),
"It's like being on a plane, when you know it's gonna crash - everyone around you is screaming, yelling "We're going down! We're going down!" And all you really wanna do is grab the person next to you and fuck the shit out of them, 'cuz you know you're gonna be dead soon, anyway."

Roth also has a Hostel shirt with the blowtorched girl's face on it. I should stop thinking about these things, but I've been so repulsed by him that I can't quit compiling a Greatest Hits list of terrible things I should stop thinking about.

I actually liked both the girls in Cabin Fever. (The slutty one was basically the only competent person in the entire cabin, which I think was why I liked her?)

And then she got eaten by a wild dog. Very subtle, Eli, you giant douchebag.

I am developing such a hate-crush on him. You know, where I can't stop obsessing over what a horrible person he is. It's horrible AND I CAN'T STOP.

I can't remember too much about the other girl (or much else about the film, except for how horrified I was by Strong's career trajectory), but I do believe you're right.

As always with horror films (and sadly, a view held outside of the film genre), if you're a sexual woman, you're ruined forever and must pay for your crimes against man.

For the longest time, I had a hate/love thing for him and decided the best action to take to would be to go preying mantis on him. And now that's been wrecked, too.

I mean, I knew everybody died, but I didn't realize she would get EATEN BY DOGS while the guys all mostly just GOT SHOT. I sort of figured everyone would slowly die of the disease/shoot themselves in the head/whatever. :(

And basically, it's like you're me. I mean, I found him ridiculous and had no real respect for him, but he was hot. So, you know, he'd come up on cliff/marry/shags sometimes and I'd be like "shag then cliff? :D? :D?" but basically now I am like >:( and just really pissed off that I EVEN STILL CARE ENOUGH TO GET ANGRY.

She and Ladd had excruciating deaths and I'm just now realizing this. Roth got all pissy in an interview for, as he very simply put it, getting called a misogynist for killing girls in his films. The girls used as bait in Hostel get plowed by cars and are shown as cruel and awful for taking advantage of those stupid Amercian boys and DAMMIT HE STILL DOESN'T GET IT (from the same interview where he didn't find fault with throwing around homophobic slurs).

I FEEL THE EXACT SAME WAY. I think part of it is that I'm bothered that other women can't see what's wrong with him and the whole ONTD mess.

Yeah, like, I don't care if he kills women in his movies. I expect women to get killed if there is more than one in a movie and there's a large body count. But there's a huge difference between killing people equally, and the women dying in much much more excruciating ways than the men. (The only one that comes close to the women's death's in Cabin Fever is the Rider Strong character's prolonged battle with the disease before he gets shot[?], but I don't think that's worse than battling the disease, getting your FACE EATEN OFF BY A DOG and then your boyfriend putting you out of your misery WITH A SHOVEL.)

And yeah, see, I could see how Hostel could have played out differently, or been about what he seems to have wanted it to be about, but the movie he talks about having made and the movie he actually made are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

YES. All of the ridiculous '80s slasher flicks are more progressive than anything he's done. I think Hostel has interesting premise concerning the horrors of sex trafficking in Eastern Europe and paralleling it to the selling of tourists for torture/entertainment, but such material needs to be done with care and consideration and with a more than competent director at the helm. Along with that, such a film wouldn't need sequels, as the subject matter is horrific enough without turning it into a wretched franchise.

Yeah. I'm kind of pissed off because the IDEA is actually kind of great, but the execution is... eh. I think that's kind of the frustrating thing about him. He's not stupid, and he has some good ideas in there. They just get lost in all the id, and it's like no one will take him aside and tell him he's not making the movie he thinks he's making. I mean, yeah, there's something to be said for standing up for your works, but there's also something to be said for admitting there's a possibility you fucked up.

Also, yeah, Roth doesn't seem to realize when something is done. I know you don't like the Thanksgiving trailer, but I kind of thought it was good at what it was supposed to be -- which was basically just seeing how many times it could cross the line twice in four minutes, but whatever. But then he decided it needed to be made into a full-length movie. Which completely misses the point of the only thing that made the trailer successful, which was cramming all the over the top things in right together to shock you so much you became horrimused. As an actual movie, it wouldn't even be successful at that. (Although it does raise the question of if a filmmaker goes into a movie trying to make a bad movie and the movie is bad, was it successful?)

On the other hand, unlike above comments suggest, he's not actually involved in Hostel 3, afaik?

What made it hard for me to fully dislike him was that he has a vast knowledge of film, particularly the Italian film industry of the 1970s; reading interviews him was a pleasure as I was able to discover some great films (though he seemed to miss the points the films strived to make). I think Roth is capable of one day making a good film, as long he matures and learns some restraint. When Hostel 2 came out and bombed, he blamed it all on people downloading it, whining that we have PG-13 horror films because of them. Roth seems to fancy himself as a subversive, renegade director like those of the '70s (and like QT), so if there's a problem with his work or his attitude, it's not him, it's us.

I didn't terribly mind the trailer for Thanksgiving, but that knife-in-the-vag got to me. However, he absolutely the feel of a nasty grindhouse film from 1981 down perfectly (even the voice-over was perfect) and I loved Michael Biehn in it. And you're right, it would not work as a full-length film. Initially, there would be the fun of spotting all of the trailer moments in the film, but what else is he going to cram in there? It's basically going to be Roth at play with his imagination and pretending he's Fulci or Carpenter or even Sam Peckinpah (who was about as stunted as Roth, but a very talented man, which can make his films even more infuriating). Though such an attitude could make Thanksgiving successful, as long he goes into the project with the purpose of having fun with it instead of making a purposefully awful film with grotesque imagery. There are more than enough wanna-be schlocky horror films that are failures because they specifically force themselves to be campy schlock, instead of letting it happen naturally. It especially ruins the appeal when the actors are knowingly in on the joke.

After some googling, it indeed appears that Roth has no involvement in Hostel 3 and it may in fact end up straight-to-DVD (which would be hilarious if it turned out to be the best of the Hostel films).

I completely agree with this entire comment, and I think I need to step back from thinking about the ways in which Eli Roth frustrates the living hell out of me. Because it's like, if he weren't such a defensive fuck-up convinced he's on the CUTTING EDGE, he might actually be an all right dude. But instead, no. We got the Eli Roth of this universe. And I think I need to not indulge my hate crush. Or my actual "but he could be cool! someday!" crush that is currently in hiding but might come out again if i'm not careful.

All is right in the world.

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